Recent Posts - DAFNE Online

Aug 31, 2010

EMS 15 posts

Hi,
you are not alone.... I find it very hard sometimes.
Thereâ€™s a couple of things I find really useful to help motivate myself.
Firstly, the blood glucose diary is a great help, I open it first thing when I get into work and have it open on my desktop all day so I can keep track of every morsel of food and drop of insulin; this makes me more mindful of what Iâ€™m doing and reminds me that I can't really get away with ignoring that Iâ€™ve eaten the odd sweet or bag of crisps.
The graphs are great for monitoring progress, especially the pie charts - so much more satisfying to see more green than red!
Also, everyone at work is aware that Iâ€™m diabetic, so I have no problem testing at my desk. Initially I tried to avoid telling people, but it just got to be too much work trying to hide it, so I just told them.
Weekends are much harder because Iâ€™ve not set routine, but I reckon that if I can stay on track for most of the week, the odd slip here and there should not be too bad in the greater scheme of things.

Aug 31, 2010

kid127 25 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Help or advice...please?

Hi,

Thanks for the messages. I had an appointment with my consultant and spilt my background does which helped a bit but I also went for an appointment to look at getting a pump this morning and I think thats the way I'm going to go. The pump nurse thinks my problem might be because of injction sites and the pump should help with this. I need to wait until October to get it fitted but I'm looking forward to it after reading other peoples comments about pumps on this site

Aug 31, 2010

Lizzie 87 posts

Topic: General Discussion / The Hospital - Channel 4

Hi again Marke

I see the clinic. That is another thing that annoys me. The Gp seems to always want in on my diabetes management for some reason, probably to further inflate their already massive paycheques. I am quite happy being monitored by the hospital. But the GP keeps sending me plastic vials through the post and asking me to go to the hospital (some sort of outpatients clinic where they take all sorts of blood samples) and get it done, when I already get it done by the hospital diabetic clinic. I see this as needless duplication of resources and wish they would communicate better. The best they currently manage is for the hospital clinic to hand me a letter to deliver to the GP at my annual review. I don't understand why they are not using the same computer system or cannot send my results electronically to the GP, for example as a secure email attachment or something. It seems ridiculously old fashioned to have to hand deliver a letter.

But anyway. I am seen by the hospital. I see a doctor, usually a different one, for annual appointments and the eye department for appointments and occasional photos and thats it. I have tried asking for other help but they don't seem interested in giving it to me. I suppose it is cheaper and easier their way.

I don't think DAFNE has made me less reliant on the diabetes support team. I don't think that is the point. That to me smacks of cutbacks and moneysaving (hey, diabetics are a big drain on the NHS! How can we save money on them? I know, send them all on a one-week course and that will mean we can save on expensive doctors salaries!). My self management has improved since DAFNE. But it was one week several years ago. It will have less and less of an effect as time goes by. I desperately need the support of my diabetes team to keep me on the right track after the course has finished.

Aug 31, 2010

Mark2 23 posts

Topic: General Discussion / back again

Also one thing I have found which helps - is to make it as easy as possible to do tests. I mean keep your meter close at hand at all times. So testing becomes almost like a reflex - its done in a couple of seconds. If you set the date and time accurately on your meter - you can also enter the values in your diary later, maybe at the end of the day if this is more convenient.

Aug 31, 2010

Mark2 23 posts

Topic: General Discussion / back again

Yes its a difficult one.

Like you I used to be very bad at testing, and would find anything to avoid taking the time to do it. Even though each test takes less than a minute using modern blood testing meters, I guess it felt like an unecessary chore.

What I discovered is that when i started TO TAKE A REAL INTEREST in my readings, and managing my sugars, it got much better. What I mean by this I suppose, is that you need some real motivation for testing. Try to become genuinely curious about what your readings are and what has affected them. What did you eat? did you get the calculation of QA right that time? As soon as you start to achieve some success at managing sugars, motivation gets a lot better. At least thats what I have found.

Aug 31, 2010

novorapidboi26 1,818 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Blood glucose results

I agree, you need to change your ratios....(which you did and seen good results)

I am personally on quite alot of insulin; a 17-28 split of background, 1:3 in the morning and 1:1.5 the rest of the day....

As mark2 mentioned we can experience a time in the morning when our cells are more resistant to insulin and our liver may be dumping glucose into the blood as a result of hormones being released, as a result the ratio ususally need to be higher here.

Also when in the double figures, for me above 12.0, you may need more correctional units as the normal reduction in sugar for 1 unit (1u=2-3mmol/l), may not be enough.........

Also when excercising you should be taking a reading before as well, if your to high then excercise will actually push your readings up.

Apart fromt that you seemed pretty clued up...well done

Aug 31, 2010

novorapidboi26 1,818 posts

Topic: General Discussion / back again

Its hard to keep testing all the time........

I personally was encouraged to test because of dafne, the understanding it gave me actually makes me want to know what is happening with my blood sugars........which I need..........

Its all about routine really.............what is your lifestyle like? Is there any routine or does it change from day to day..........

Aug 30, 2010

marke 655 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Android App

Hi, I think the answer is a tentative 'yes'. I plan to try and do a version of the app that will run on a number of phones including android. However its a question of time , since I have never written code for a mobile phone before its a new challenge and learning experience.
As soon as there is any news about the app I will post it in the Site Development forum.

Aug 30, 2010

julee mistry 3 posts

Topic: General Discussion / back again

hi im julee and i have just started to use the site again today. I am feeling a little upset with the whole diabetes thing and i just cant seem to get this right. I start the week testing my blood and then it stops. i give up and just cant seem to stay on track. my HBa1c is 9.2 and i need it much lower than this. was diagnosed in 2005 and i feel im not winning this battel.

i need to take control of this situation.
Is anyone else in the same situation or is it just me

Aug 30, 2010

julee mistry 3 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Android App

hi i agree with the comment above. please could there be an app for my HTC legend phone. may help me rrcord my blood sugar readings and inform the team who look after me,

thanks

Aug 30, 2010

Mark2 23 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Blood glucose results

As an example - I am on a ratio normally of 1:1.5 for most meals. And 1:2 for Breakfast. My Basal insulin is much lower, I only take 28 units of this a day

Aug 30, 2010

Mark2 23 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Blood glucose results

You seem to be on a 1:1 ratio of Quick Acting insulin to CP's.

From what I can see it may be worth increasing this ratio. Certainly in the morning where many people go for a 1:1.2 or 1:2 ratio - to cope with what's called the "morning phenomenon". You seem to have done this yesterday (Sunday) where your readings were better.

Ideally you should really only need corrective doses occasionally, when there has been maybe some kind of miscalculation of CP's.

Aug 30, 2010

Katherine 1 post

Topic: General Discussion / Blood glucose results

Would really appriciate some advice Smile

Aug 30, 2010

chris s 2 posts

Topic: General Discussion / spiking early evening

Thanks for replies - I too came to same conclusion. My basal dose is split so I have increased am dose - hope it works. Re Mark 2 - yes I had one glass of wine. Thanks.

Aug 30, 2010

NiVZ 82 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Clikstar Pens

Hello,

Forgot to reply to this topic.

Finally got hold of a blue Clikstar pen and I like it a lot - it's so much better than the Autopen, although still not quite as good as my Humapen Luxura.

The pen is a good size (only marginally bigger than a Humapen) and goes up in 1 click intervals up to 80 units. One very clever feature is when you get near to the end of the cartridge it will only allow you to dial up how much is actually in there - ie no more plunger stopping half way through a dose because you know before hand there isn't enough in there. I think more manufacturers need to implement this.

My only gripe is it is a bit plasticy, but thats only me being very picky. Overall it feels very robust and easy to use, and I'm now safe in the knowledge I'm using an approved pen for my Lantus injections Smile

NiVZ

Aug 30, 2010

novorapidboi26 1,818 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Help or advice...please?

Hey Lee.........

It seems to me that most of the time your background lantus is doing ok..........if not too much, even when your dose was 13 you were still coming down by morning........have you ever tried changing your background injection time.....experimenting with that might set you up better for the day.......

Its hard to tell whats going on as the QA doses on your diary are confusing with the CP amounts because you have not put down the ratios...........it would suggest to me you are quite sensitive to insulin, having ratios of 0.1-1:1......

What are your ratiios?

Apart from the ups and downs your control not bad at all!!

Aug 29, 2010

Sheila_Kay 11 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Help or advice...please?

Hi Lee,

I hope that by now you have had some help with your blood sugars, I am on Novorapid and lantus and just when I think I have got my readings level they can go up or down. I had to split my lantus which does work well for me. 7am and 7pm. I find that when I try to keep my meals to set times and not too many carbs my sugars are better, but I do shift work and that does make me tired and effect my readings. Have you tried changing the time you give your lantus?
How are you getting on now. Sheila

Aug 28, 2010

novorapidboi26 1,818 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Introductions

Welcome Alan from a fellow monklands graduate, the team there are brilliant................................

See u around........................

Aug 28, 2010

AlanC 1 post

Topic: General Discussion / Introductions

Hi everyone - just graduated yesterday (27 Aug) from DAFNE at Monklands Hospital - I wish I had been given the opportunity to do this many years ago. I was diagnosed in early 1986, aged 17, early years I didnt look after myself as closely as I should have, but my good lady wife (who I married 16 years ago) has made sure that this has changed for good! Prior to DAFNE was using far too much Insulin (to ensure my BG's didn't run too high). Despite good HBA1c results, have had too many hypos and as a result of the high Insulin doses have been eating too much (at the expense of my waistline!. Currently on Levemir (now split!) and Actrapid. Following DAFNE I am using around 15-20 less units of Insulin per day!!!!. Hopefully I can maintain this in teh long run. I'd also like to thank the DAFNE educators at Monklands, Pat and Lynn, who were absolutely brilliant last week. Hope to visit this site every day and maybe speak to some of you soon

Alan

Aug 28, 2010

Dr Jez McCole 11 posts

Topic: Site Development / DAFNE Online iPhone application - help with content/design needed

I am enjoying the app loads Simon, thank you for all the work. I believe one of the DAFNE principles is to decide what's for dinner before worrying about your sugar level. That is to say that the decision about carbs comes before the decision about any corrections. This is why CP's comes before BG, even if we all do actually check our sugars 1st.
Can I suggest:
- a keypad entry for BG and CPs as an option instead of the scroll wheels?
- Because I have found myself using a calculator alongside the app, a CP calculator function within the app would be great. If you press "CP" and see a calculator style screen that has the option of either typing in CPs or even more usefully, typing "Carbohydrate per 100g" (as printed on a packet) and "grams I'm actually eating". To then add to a "Carb Totaliser" for the meal and 'Save' the total CPs once done.
- Some reporting functionality within the app, similar to the online reports. Can we have reporting on insulin doses as well as BGs? Perhaps "Average Total Daily Dose" over the past 14 or 28 days would be good for sick day calculations. Also a report on the number of corrective doses needed and when could really help fine tune the previous meal's ratio. THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN SIMON. Dr Jez McCole

Aug 28, 2010

Garry 328 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Insulin Pens

Humapen Memoir is available on prescription here in the UK.

Just ask GP for a script:

Humapen Memoir on PIP code 329-3727

or in other parts of the world EAN code 5014602500320

Regards
Garry

Aug 28, 2010

ThunderBolt 28 posts

Topic: Site Development / DAFNE Online iPhone application - help with content/design needed

Sorry for the multiple posts but can't see an edit button.

As I say the app works great now but one thing I would suggest is that the times of day could be listed in chronological order rather than alphabetical order. Also the order of entry, as we spoke about on the paper version could have the BG and CP swapped about as the BG is the 1st thing you usually do. It's probably me being a bit dense again but I always enter them in the wrong box!

Aug 28, 2010

ThunderBolt 28 posts

Topic: Site Development / DAFNE Online iPhone application - help with content/design needed

I'm glad - if a little embarrassed - to say my 10 year old cousin sorted it out for me. Works a treat now!

Aug 28, 2010

kestle 3 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Insulin Pens

I would just like to say thanks to everyone who has responded to my original post, i haven't had any luck as yet finding anything suitable in Aussie yet (no jokes required lol) I have talked to my GP and diabetes guru and im sure they will track something down that i can give a try. They were both interested and could definitely see where i was coming from so in closing thanks again to yall. BTW go spurs for all you footy tragics Smile

Cheers Charlie

Aug 31, 2010 EMS 15 posts	Topic: General Discussion / back again Hi, you are not alone.... I find it very hard sometimes. Thereâ€™s a couple of things I find really useful to help motivate myself. Firstly, the blood glucose diary is a great help, I open it first thing when I get into work and have it open on my desktop all day so I can keep track of every morsel of food and drop of insulin; this makes me more mindful of what Iâ€™m doing and reminds me that I can't really get away with ignoring that Iâ€™ve eaten the odd sweet or bag of crisps. The graphs are great for monitoring progress, especially the pie charts - so much more satisfying to see more green than red! Also, everyone at work is aware that Iâ€™m diabetic, so I have no problem testing at my desk. Initially I tried to avoid telling people, but it just got to be too much work trying to hide it, so I just told them. Weekends are much harder because Iâ€™ve not set routine, but I reckon that if I can stay on track for most of the week, the odd slip here and there should not be too bad in the greater scheme of things.

Aug 31, 2010 kid127 25 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Help or advice...please? Hi, Thanks for the messages. I had an appointment with my consultant and spilt my background does which helped a bit but I also went for an appointment to look at getting a pump this morning and I think thats the way I'm going to go. The pump nurse thinks my problem might be because of injction sites and the pump should help with this. I need to wait until October to get it fitted but I'm looking forward to it after reading other peoples comments about pumps on this site

Aug 31, 2010 Lizzie 87 posts	Topic: General Discussion / The Hospital - Channel 4 Hi again Marke I see the clinic. That is another thing that annoys me. The Gp seems to always want in on my diabetes management for some reason, probably to further inflate their already massive paycheques. I am quite happy being monitored by the hospital. But the GP keeps sending me plastic vials through the post and asking me to go to the hospital (some sort of outpatients clinic where they take all sorts of blood samples) and get it done, when I already get it done by the hospital diabetic clinic. I see this as needless duplication of resources and wish they would communicate better. The best they currently manage is for the hospital clinic to hand me a letter to deliver to the GP at my annual review. I don't understand why they are not using the same computer system or cannot send my results electronically to the GP, for example as a secure email attachment or something. It seems ridiculously old fashioned to have to hand deliver a letter. But anyway. I am seen by the hospital. I see a doctor, usually a different one, for annual appointments and the eye department for appointments and occasional photos and thats it. I have tried asking for other help but they don't seem interested in giving it to me. I suppose it is cheaper and easier their way. I don't think DAFNE has made me less reliant on the diabetes support team. I don't think that is the point. That to me smacks of cutbacks and moneysaving (hey, diabetics are a big drain on the NHS! How can we save money on them? I know, send them all on a one-week course and that will mean we can save on expensive doctors salaries!). My self management has improved since DAFNE. But it was one week several years ago. It will have less and less of an effect as time goes by. I desperately need the support of my diabetes team to keep me on the right track after the course has finished.

Aug 31, 2010 Mark2 23 posts	Topic: General Discussion / back again Also one thing I have found which helps - is to make it as easy as possible to do tests. I mean keep your meter close at hand at all times. So testing becomes almost like a reflex - its done in a couple of seconds. If you set the date and time accurately on your meter - you can also enter the values in your diary later, maybe at the end of the day if this is more convenient.

Aug 31, 2010 Mark2 23 posts	Topic: General Discussion / back again Yes its a difficult one. Like you I used to be very bad at testing, and would find anything to avoid taking the time to do it. Even though each test takes less than a minute using modern blood testing meters, I guess it felt like an unecessary chore. What I discovered is that when i started TO TAKE A REAL INTEREST in my readings, and managing my sugars, it got much better. What I mean by this I suppose, is that you need some real motivation for testing. Try to become genuinely curious about what your readings are and what has affected them. What did you eat? did you get the calculation of QA right that time? As soon as you start to achieve some success at managing sugars, motivation gets a lot better. At least thats what I have found.

Aug 31, 2010 novorapidboi26 1,818 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Blood glucose results I agree, you need to change your ratios....(which you did and seen good results) I am personally on quite alot of insulin; a 17-28 split of background, 1:3 in the morning and 1:1.5 the rest of the day.... As mark2 mentioned we can experience a time in the morning when our cells are more resistant to insulin and our liver may be dumping glucose into the blood as a result of hormones being released, as a result the ratio ususally need to be higher here. Also when in the double figures, for me above 12.0, you may need more correctional units as the normal reduction in sugar for 1 unit (1u=2-3mmol/l), may not be enough......... Also when excercising you should be taking a reading before as well, if your to high then excercise will actually push your readings up. Apart fromt that you seemed pretty clued up...well done

Aug 31, 2010 novorapidboi26 1,818 posts	Topic: General Discussion / back again Its hard to keep testing all the time........ I personally was encouraged to test because of dafne, the understanding it gave me actually makes me want to know what is happening with my blood sugars........which I need.......... Its all about routine really.............what is your lifestyle like? Is there any routine or does it change from day to day..........

Aug 30, 2010 marke 655 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Android App Hi, I think the answer is a tentative 'yes'. I plan to try and do a version of the app that will run on a number of phones including android. However its a question of time , since I have never written code for a mobile phone before its a new challenge and learning experience. As soon as there is any news about the app I will post it in the Site Development forum.

Aug 30, 2010 julee mistry 3 posts	Topic: General Discussion / back again hi im julee and i have just started to use the site again today. I am feeling a little upset with the whole diabetes thing and i just cant seem to get this right. I start the week testing my blood and then it stops. i give up and just cant seem to stay on track. my HBa1c is 9.2 and i need it much lower than this. was diagnosed in 2005 and i feel im not winning this battel. i need to take control of this situation. Is anyone else in the same situation or is it just me

Aug 30, 2010 julee mistry 3 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Android App hi i agree with the comment above. please could there be an app for my HTC legend phone. may help me rrcord my blood sugar readings and inform the team who look after me, thanks

Aug 30, 2010 Mark2 23 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Blood glucose results As an example - I am on a ratio normally of 1:1.5 for most meals. And 1:2 for Breakfast. My Basal insulin is much lower, I only take 28 units of this a day

Aug 30, 2010 Mark2 23 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Blood glucose results You seem to be on a 1:1 ratio of Quick Acting insulin to CP's. From what I can see it may be worth increasing this ratio. Certainly in the morning where many people go for a 1:1.2 or 1:2 ratio - to cope with what's called the "morning phenomenon". You seem to have done this yesterday (Sunday) where your readings were better. Ideally you should really only need corrective doses occasionally, when there has been maybe some kind of miscalculation of CP's.

Aug 30, 2010 Katherine 1 post	Topic: General Discussion / Blood glucose results Would really appriciate some advice

Aug 30, 2010 chris s 2 posts	Topic: General Discussion / spiking early evening Thanks for replies - I too came to same conclusion. My basal dose is split so I have increased am dose - hope it works. Re Mark 2 - yes I had one glass of wine. Thanks.

Aug 30, 2010 NiVZ 82 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Clikstar Pens Hello, Forgot to reply to this topic. Finally got hold of a blue Clikstar pen and I like it a lot - it's so much better than the Autopen, although still not quite as good as my Humapen Luxura. The pen is a good size (only marginally bigger than a Humapen) and goes up in 1 click intervals up to 80 units. One very clever feature is when you get near to the end of the cartridge it will only allow you to dial up how much is actually in there - ie no more plunger stopping half way through a dose because you know before hand there isn't enough in there. I think more manufacturers need to implement this. My only gripe is it is a bit plasticy, but thats only me being very picky. Overall it feels very robust and easy to use, and I'm now safe in the knowledge I'm using an approved pen for my Lantus injections NiVZ

Aug 30, 2010 novorapidboi26 1,818 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Help or advice...please? Hey Lee......... It seems to me that most of the time your background lantus is doing ok..........if not too much, even when your dose was 13 you were still coming down by morning........have you ever tried changing your background injection time.....experimenting with that might set you up better for the day....... Its hard to tell whats going on as the QA doses on your diary are confusing with the CP amounts because you have not put down the ratios...........it would suggest to me you are quite sensitive to insulin, having ratios of 0.1-1:1...... What are your ratiios? Apart from the ups and downs your control not bad at all!!

Aug 29, 2010 Sheila_Kay 11 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Help or advice...please? Hi Lee, I hope that by now you have had some help with your blood sugars, I am on Novorapid and lantus and just when I think I have got my readings level they can go up or down. I had to split my lantus which does work well for me. 7am and 7pm. I find that when I try to keep my meals to set times and not too many carbs my sugars are better, but I do shift work and that does make me tired and effect my readings. Have you tried changing the time you give your lantus? How are you getting on now. Sheila

Aug 28, 2010 novorapidboi26 1,818 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Introductions Welcome Alan from a fellow monklands graduate, the team there are brilliant................................ See u around........................

Aug 28, 2010 AlanC 1 post	Topic: General Discussion / Introductions Hi everyone - just graduated yesterday (27 Aug) from DAFNE at Monklands Hospital - I wish I had been given the opportunity to do this many years ago. I was diagnosed in early 1986, aged 17, early years I didnt look after myself as closely as I should have, but my good lady wife (who I married 16 years ago) has made sure that this has changed for good! Prior to DAFNE was using far too much Insulin (to ensure my BG's didn't run too high). Despite good HBA1c results, have had too many hypos and as a result of the high Insulin doses have been eating too much (at the expense of my waistline!. Currently on Levemir (now split!) and Actrapid. Following DAFNE I am using around 15-20 less units of Insulin per day!!!!. Hopefully I can maintain this in teh long run. I'd also like to thank the DAFNE educators at Monklands, Pat and Lynn, who were absolutely brilliant last week. Hope to visit this site every day and maybe speak to some of you soon Alan

Aug 28, 2010 Dr Jez McCole 11 posts	Topic: Site Development / DAFNE Online iPhone application - help with content/design needed I am enjoying the app loads Simon, thank you for all the work. I believe one of the DAFNE principles is to decide what's for dinner before worrying about your sugar level. That is to say that the decision about carbs comes before the decision about any corrections. This is why CP's comes before BG, even if we all do actually check our sugars 1st. Can I suggest: - a keypad entry for BG and CPs as an option instead of the scroll wheels? - Because I have found myself using a calculator alongside the app, a CP calculator function within the app would be great. If you press "CP" and see a calculator style screen that has the option of either typing in CPs or even more usefully, typing "Carbohydrate per 100g" (as printed on a packet) and "grams I'm actually eating". To then add to a "Carb Totaliser" for the meal and 'Save' the total CPs once done. - Some reporting functionality within the app, similar to the online reports. Can we have reporting on insulin doses as well as BGs? Perhaps "Average Total Daily Dose" over the past 14 or 28 days would be good for sick day calculations. Also a report on the number of corrective doses needed and when could really help fine tune the previous meal's ratio. THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN SIMON. Dr Jez McCole

Aug 28, 2010 Garry 328 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Insulin Pens Humapen Memoir is available on prescription here in the UK. Just ask GP for a script: Humapen Memoir on PIP code 329-3727 or in other parts of the world EAN code 5014602500320 Regards Garry

Aug 28, 2010 ThunderBolt 28 posts	Topic: Site Development / DAFNE Online iPhone application - help with content/design needed Sorry for the multiple posts but can't see an edit button. As I say the app works great now but one thing I would suggest is that the times of day could be listed in chronological order rather than alphabetical order. Also the order of entry, as we spoke about on the paper version could have the BG and CP swapped about as the BG is the 1st thing you usually do. It's probably me being a bit dense again but I always enter them in the wrong box!

Aug 28, 2010 ThunderBolt 28 posts	Topic: Site Development / DAFNE Online iPhone application - help with content/design needed I'm glad - if a little embarrassed - to say my 10 year old cousin sorted it out for me. Works a treat now!

Aug 28, 2010 kestle 3 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Insulin Pens I would just like to say thanks to everyone who has responded to my original post, i haven't had any luck as yet finding anything suitable in Aussie yet (no jokes required lol) I have talked to my GP and diabetes guru and im sure they will track something down that i can give a try. They were both interested and could definitely see where i was coming from so in closing thanks again to yall. BTW go spurs for all you footy tragics Cheers Charlie