Recent Posts - DAFNE Online

Aug 20, 2013

novorapidboi26 1,819 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI)

It can be done manually of course, but I think boring you with that is unnecessary for the moment.......

you could maybe try adding on 5% QA on to your meal time doses.......however, this might not be enough, or maybe too much....

professional advice may be needed.........

I have done it before, but I just went through the day a little higher than normal.....

Aug 20, 2013

novorapidboi26 1,819 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Operations/ Healing

If your blood sugars are not kept to reasonable levels then yes, healing can take longer, and infection is more likely.....

How have your blood sugars been over the last week........?

Your body may be using more glucose from the liver in order to assist in the healing of your mouth, this would mean that you may need to increase your background insulin. Just for the duration of the healing of course....

Your diabetic team should be able to advise of how much to increase it by and for how long.....

The dentist explanation could be correct, or it may need more treatment, either way getting your blood sugar under control can only help speed up the recovery.....

Aug 20, 2013

cathydl 3 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI)

Hi No I don't have that type of meter unfortunately. Thanks for the reply.

Aug 20, 2013

novorapidboi26 1,819 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI)

I would think it would just be a case of correcting as the day goes by........

Do you have a blood glucose monitor with an on board insulin function.....this would allow you to check your BG while there is still carbs and insulin working and correct safely, if the meter thinks you need to.

Aug 20, 2013

cathydl 3 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI)

Hi

I've forgotten to take my BI this morning! I normally take 14u of Levemir. Any ideas how I can control my BG until I get home? Was hoping for an increased ratio of QA??

Cheers

Aug 20, 2013

Rafa 99 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI)

At the moment i take my evening levemir when i am going to bed which would be between say 10pm - 11pm and then my morning one at around 10am. Would it make any difference if i started to take it at 6am when i get up?

Please and thanks.

Aug 19, 2013

Warwick 423 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / Blood Glucose in the morning

Yeah, missing basal insulin can make BGs a bit unmanageable for a couple of days while it all sorts itself out again. I don't miss often, but when I do, my readings go high for abut 24 hours.

Aug 19, 2013

JayBee 587 posts

Topic: Carbohydrate Counting / Greggs baguette sandwiches

I will have another look if they have improved it. The last time I got their Android app all it did was list the menu and show pictures .... Waste of space really so uninstalled it and carried on using the PDF.

Aug 19, 2013

Rafa 99 posts

Topic: Carbohydrate Counting / Greggs baguette sandwiches

They have an app now that's free. Got it for my iphone over the weekend. It's a very good one in terms of all the products and nutritional information.

Aug 19, 2013

Teanosugar 25 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Operations/ Healing

Hi,

This is to do with diabetes, but here is the back story:

I had a wisdom tooth extraction about two months ago and have had two fillings replaced in the teeth next to them (this was around the same time). I got dry socket with the extraction and was treated for that as well. However, I keep getting infections and toothache in the wisdom tooth next to the one that was extracted. It also smells and tastes horrible, and I was convinced it needs taking out. All my other teeth seem fine except this one. I went back to my dentist today. He did a thorough inspection and said that he thinks it's all still healing and that the bad smell/ taste is food getting stuck in the socket. I was given some antibiotics and was told to start taking them in a couple of days if I don't feel better. In the meantime I just have to sit it out and wait for it to heal.

I've been sent home from work this morning because my blood was 21.8 and I felt horrendous.

Is it normal for diabetics to experience this? How long can I expect to heal? The NHS website says two weeks is normal, but do diabetics find that they can take forever to recover from operations and whatnot?

Thanks.

Aug 19, 2013

Rafa 99 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / Blood Glucose in the morning

Many thanks Warwick. I actually think i forgot to take my levemir yesterday morning. My bloods were fine yesterday morning and at lunch but then from dinner onwards they went crazy. 12.4 at dinner so i took the correction of +2 and 1 for the cp i ate. Then at 10.30 going to be bed i was 16.4. Took a correction of +3 and my evening levemir. Decided to do a 3am and i was 11.9. Didn't do anything at this stage when i probably should have corrected. Anyway woke up this morning and at 6am before breakfast and i was 12.1

Could missing my levemir yesterday morning be a reason?

Aug 19, 2013

Warwick 423 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / Blood Glucose in the morning

Hi Rafa,

If you find yourself giving correctional QA after most BG readings, then that would be an indicator that your basal insulin (levemir) is a bit low and may need to be increased by 10-15%. Remember to wait 2-3 days after chaning though to see what changes to your BGs have been made.

Cheers,
Warwick.

Aug 18, 2013

HelenP 218 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / insulin pump

Hi Vicki.

In the last week or so here in Australia we had a guy (I think he was a GP) who has recently (don't know how recently) been diagnosed type 1 talking on "The Health Report" on Radio National. Basically he was saying that he is living on a very low carb diet (not unlike the Aitkins Diet) and he has reduced his insulin demand to a very low single dose that he takes at night. I am presuming it is long acting and by injection. He has eggs for breakfast, salad and protein for lunch and leafy greens, nuts and some dried fruits for dinner. We were warned about "trying this at home" but he did talk a lot of sense and we were advised to talk about this with our specialists. He did this with the blessing of his endocrinologist. Maybe there is something in there for you. Good luck. Helen

Aug 18, 2013

Vickyp 137 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / insulin pump

I am now having a trial without the pump... To see what happens over 24hrs as the amount of insulin I get through the pump is now on average less than 5 units, with only 0.8 basal! I have a rare form of diabetes (not type1 or type2) so consultant now wants to see what happens Confused

Aug 18, 2013

Rafa 99 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / Blood Glucose in the morning

Struggling a bit myself with getting to grips with it all. My sugars are a lot better am than before DAFNE but still around the 9 mark. Would it make sense to increase my levemir by one/two units at night?

Aug 16, 2013

Warwick 423 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / weight gain

No problem, and all the best with it. Sometimes it feels like a bit of a juggling act, but if you are feeling more confident about DAFNE principles now, then you can hopefully concentrate on reducing intake. I also find that introducing incidental exercise wherever possible also helps. I used to take the train to work, now I cycle and I feel so much better for it.

Aug 16, 2013

jackiemckenzie 3 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / weight gain

ahh thank you. I think that is what happened to me, given the freedom to choose what I want to eat and before DAFNE I was able to say no and stick to a 3 meals a day but then like you I did not handle it too well afterwards.Friends know that I can eat what I like and use the insulin to balance BG out. I am now saying" no thank you, you go ahead though" I think I have got it in my head that if it's low carb it's low calories. I was "having" to snack a lot because my BG would always be running low but DAFNE has sorted that out for me. I have a diabetic review today and I am going to make it my goal to loose at least 1/2 stone by next review. I do know the answer but its putting it all in place, too many things going on to cope with at one time. I know I am managing my diabetes well but I find it time consuming. Perhaps I am trying too hard. I had a brother who had type 1 had to leave the army, had 3 strokes at 37 years old and then died because of diabetic complications at 47. On a brighter note I will try your salad and think of you. Cannot eat too many of them as I have ulcerative colitis as well and although it is stable with medication need to be care full. p.s just noticed you live in Australia, thank you for replying

Aug 16, 2013

Warwick 423 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / weight gain

I don't know about since DAFNE, but I've certainly put on weight since I was diagnosed with T1 3 years ago. I'm trying to get rid of it now, but frequent hypos force me to eat more than I want to, and stuff that I don't want to eat.

I'm interested by your statement "I probably really do know the answers". What do you think the answers are? Given that you know yourself better than anyone else, you probably do have insight into the underlying reasons.

DAFNE allows you to eat foods now that you may have previously considered off-limits. Talking with others who have done the course, that freedom to eat whatever they want has been frightening and not necessarily handled well. For myself, my snacking went very high following DAFNE, whereas previously, I had cut out snacking completely. I'm looking to cut it back at the moment.

Something I am also having success with at the moment is replacing my usual evening dinner with a home-made salad. It is a really big salad made up of carrots, red capsicum, raw nuts, fetta cheese, chopped dates, dried apricots, raw mushroom, cucumber, pumpkin seeds, chopped apple and/or pear.

It takes me about 40 minutes to eat it all, and has lots of fibre. It leaves me feeling full until morning, and still needs a bit of insulin to handle the dates, apricots, apple and pear, but contains enough carbs and protein while not adding many kilojoules to my weight gain. It tastes fantastic and is full of nutrients.

Lastly, it uses hardly any dishes - just a chopping board and knife so I don't spend ages cleaning pots and fry pans afterwards :-)

Hope this helps.

Aug 15, 2013

jackiemckenzie 3 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / weight gain

Since attending a DAFNE course I have put on weight. I know this may sound silly but my brain can only cope with one thing at a time and I am only managing to work out my carbs to insulin and everything thing else goes out the window. I think I am making reasonable choices and I haver upped my exercise. I take just 3 lantus at night and in total each day 6-8 units of rapid acting. Please can someone offer any advise on how to make things easier for me. I really do not want to put on more weight and would like to loose the weight I have recently put on. I probably really do know the answers but it is putting it in practice. B.G generally in DAFNE targets. many thanks

Aug 13, 2013

sarahg 29 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Cycling and exercise

Hi guys thanks for the advice, the 40 miles did take a fair few hours, and I did end up stopping and testing a few times, and had a few extra snacks , I hope I do the next 40 a bit faster, as I get fitter but Iam really enjoying the cycling

Aug 13, 2013

JamesW 24 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Cycling and exercise

I find testing during riding is good too, particularly if I am riding for a couple of hours. It is an inconvenience to have to stop part-way through the ride but it allows you to see how your body reacts to the exercise.

Personally I don't reduce my insulin prior to riding, taking my normal dose for breakfast (I usually ride in the morning). When I return I will drink a blended banana with some milk and cocoa and match the carbs 100%. My subsequent lunch and evening meal doses will however be reduced by 50% and 25% respectively. I will also bear in mind my dosing the next day too, maybe taking a shade less than normal to counter any exercise "hangover".

Depending on the pace you are setting, anything over an hour will probably necessitate some form of fuel. Knowing the composition of that is helpful to account for the readings during and after riding so you can tailor your insulin accordingly.

Aug 12, 2013

mum2westiesGill 502 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Increase of Lantus/BI

Thanks for your reply Garry. A split is something to consider but obviously not when on the verge of going away on holiday and out of the country.
When I'm back home I'll give it probably 1 week or just over to see how things have settled and take it from there.
Regards
Gill

Aug 12, 2013

Sam 64 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Pregnancy*

Hello Ladies! Sorry for the late response. All is going very well. That's me 12 weeks today Laughing

I've had 2 scans so far and baby seems to be growing well and certainly making me feel like pants some days. My BGs have came right down into target most days so I'm now running between 4-6 pre-meals and testing 2 hours post meals. My ratios have remained 2:1 across the board. If anything I've been working with my BI. Changed from Humulin I to Levimer as I was hypoing through the night. My HBA1C was at 9% when I found out I was pregnant. 4 weeks later it's at 7.7%
It's been hard work to get my targets but I'd rather that than have problems. My diabetic care team are fantastic and are there for me 24/7
Just be prepared to put the work in but all I'm thinking about is getting to the next day and everything being ok.
I got my scan last Wed and was so flustered and BGs were low that I scoffed my lunch and forgot to take QA - I've been chasing my tail since and I'm so annoyed with myself. If that's baby brain god help me over the next few months/years lol!!
Anyway good luck and lots of baby dust. It took me just under a year to concieve and all I focused on was trying to fall pregnant. I was due to get the pump and I focused on that in the end and hey presto along came a baby!! It's a lot of pressure to put yourself through so try and keep calm. Easier said than done when you want to start planning.
Ahhhh it's all exciting Wink

Keep in touch xx

Aug 12, 2013

Garry 328 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Increase of Lantus/BI

Likely ... like most of us ... that your BI does not last 24 hours.
It only lasted 20 to 21 hours max for me and with that evidence, plus HCP advice, led me to my current split BI ... which works for me.
Regards
Garry

Aug 20, 2013 novorapidboi26 1,819 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI) It can be done manually of course, but I think boring you with that is unnecessary for the moment....... you could maybe try adding on 5% QA on to your meal time doses.......however, this might not be enough, or maybe too much.... professional advice may be needed......... I have done it before, but I just went through the day a little higher than normal.....

Aug 20, 2013 novorapidboi26 1,819 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Operations/ Healing If your blood sugars are not kept to reasonable levels then yes, healing can take longer, and infection is more likely..... How have your blood sugars been over the last week........? Your body may be using more glucose from the liver in order to assist in the healing of your mouth, this would mean that you may need to increase your background insulin. Just for the duration of the healing of course.... Your diabetic team should be able to advise of how much to increase it by and for how long..... The dentist explanation could be correct, or it may need more treatment, either way getting your blood sugar under control can only help speed up the recovery.....

Aug 20, 2013 cathydl 3 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI) Hi No I don't have that type of meter unfortunately. Thanks for the reply.

Aug 20, 2013 novorapidboi26 1,819 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI) I would think it would just be a case of correcting as the day goes by........ Do you have a blood glucose monitor with an on board insulin function.....this would allow you to check your BG while there is still carbs and insulin working and correct safely, if the meter thinks you need to.

Aug 20, 2013 cathydl 3 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI) Hi I've forgotten to take my BI this morning! I normally take 14u of Levemir. Any ideas how I can control my BG until I get home? Was hoping for an increased ratio of QA?? Cheers

Aug 20, 2013 Rafa 99 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Background insulin (BI) At the moment i take my evening levemir when i am going to bed which would be between say 10pm - 11pm and then my morning one at around 10am. Would it make any difference if i started to take it at 6am when i get up? Please and thanks.

Aug 19, 2013 Warwick 423 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / Blood Glucose in the morning Yeah, missing basal insulin can make BGs a bit unmanageable for a couple of days while it all sorts itself out again. I don't miss often, but when I do, my readings go high for abut 24 hours.

Aug 19, 2013 JayBee 587 posts	Topic: Carbohydrate Counting / Greggs baguette sandwiches I will have another look if they have improved it. The last time I got their Android app all it did was list the menu and show pictures .... Waste of space really so uninstalled it and carried on using the PDF.

Aug 19, 2013 Rafa 99 posts	Topic: Carbohydrate Counting / Greggs baguette sandwiches They have an app now that's free. Got it for my iphone over the weekend. It's a very good one in terms of all the products and nutritional information.

Aug 19, 2013 Teanosugar 25 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Operations/ Healing Hi, This is to do with diabetes, but here is the back story: I had a wisdom tooth extraction about two months ago and have had two fillings replaced in the teeth next to them (this was around the same time). I got dry socket with the extraction and was treated for that as well. However, I keep getting infections and toothache in the wisdom tooth next to the one that was extracted. It also smells and tastes horrible, and I was convinced it needs taking out. All my other teeth seem fine except this one. I went back to my dentist today. He did a thorough inspection and said that he thinks it's all still healing and that the bad smell/ taste is food getting stuck in the socket. I was given some antibiotics and was told to start taking them in a couple of days if I don't feel better. In the meantime I just have to sit it out and wait for it to heal. I've been sent home from work this morning because my blood was 21.8 and I felt horrendous. Is it normal for diabetics to experience this? How long can I expect to heal? The NHS website says two weeks is normal, but do diabetics find that they can take forever to recover from operations and whatnot? Thanks.

Aug 19, 2013 Rafa 99 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / Blood Glucose in the morning Many thanks Warwick. I actually think i forgot to take my levemir yesterday morning. My bloods were fine yesterday morning and at lunch but then from dinner onwards they went crazy. 12.4 at dinner so i took the correction of +2 and 1 for the cp i ate. Then at 10.30 going to be bed i was 16.4. Took a correction of +3 and my evening levemir. Decided to do a 3am and i was 11.9. Didn't do anything at this stage when i probably should have corrected. Anyway woke up this morning and at 6am before breakfast and i was 12.1 Could missing my levemir yesterday morning be a reason?

Aug 19, 2013 Warwick 423 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / Blood Glucose in the morning Hi Rafa, If you find yourself giving correctional QA after most BG readings, then that would be an indicator that your basal insulin (levemir) is a bit low and may need to be increased by 10-15%. Remember to wait 2-3 days after chaning though to see what changes to your BGs have been made. Cheers, Warwick.

Aug 18, 2013 HelenP 218 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / insulin pump Hi Vicki. In the last week or so here in Australia we had a guy (I think he was a GP) who has recently (don't know how recently) been diagnosed type 1 talking on "The Health Report" on Radio National. Basically he was saying that he is living on a very low carb diet (not unlike the Aitkins Diet) and he has reduced his insulin demand to a very low single dose that he takes at night. I am presuming it is long acting and by injection. He has eggs for breakfast, salad and protein for lunch and leafy greens, nuts and some dried fruits for dinner. We were warned about "trying this at home" but he did talk a lot of sense and we were advised to talk about this with our specialists. He did this with the blessing of his endocrinologist. Maybe there is something in there for you. Good luck. Helen

Aug 18, 2013 Vickyp 137 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / insulin pump I am now having a trial without the pump... To see what happens over 24hrs as the amount of insulin I get through the pump is now on average less than 5 units, with only 0.8 basal! I have a rare form of diabetes (not type1 or type2) so consultant now wants to see what happens

Aug 18, 2013 Rafa 99 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / Blood Glucose in the morning Struggling a bit myself with getting to grips with it all. My sugars are a lot better am than before DAFNE but still around the 9 mark. Would it make sense to increase my levemir by one/two units at night?

Aug 16, 2013 Warwick 423 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / weight gain No problem, and all the best with it. Sometimes it feels like a bit of a juggling act, but if you are feeling more confident about DAFNE principles now, then you can hopefully concentrate on reducing intake. I also find that introducing incidental exercise wherever possible also helps. I used to take the train to work, now I cycle and I feel so much better for it.

Aug 16, 2013 jackiemckenzie 3 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / weight gain ahh thank you. I think that is what happened to me, given the freedom to choose what I want to eat and before DAFNE I was able to say no and stick to a 3 meals a day but then like you I did not handle it too well afterwards.Friends know that I can eat what I like and use the insulin to balance BG out. I am now saying" no thank you, you go ahead though" I think I have got it in my head that if it's low carb it's low calories. I was "having" to snack a lot because my BG would always be running low but DAFNE has sorted that out for me. I have a diabetic review today and I am going to make it my goal to loose at least 1/2 stone by next review. I do know the answer but its putting it all in place, too many things going on to cope with at one time. I know I am managing my diabetes well but I find it time consuming. Perhaps I am trying too hard. I had a brother who had type 1 had to leave the army, had 3 strokes at 37 years old and then died because of diabetic complications at 47. On a brighter note I will try your salad and think of you. Cannot eat too many of them as I have ulcerative colitis as well and although it is stable with medication need to be care full. p.s just noticed you live in Australia, thank you for replying

Aug 16, 2013 Warwick 423 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / weight gain I don't know about since DAFNE, but I've certainly put on weight since I was diagnosed with T1 3 years ago. I'm trying to get rid of it now, but frequent hypos force me to eat more than I want to, and stuff that I don't want to eat. I'm interested by your statement "I probably really do know the answers". What do you think the answers are? Given that you know yourself better than anyone else, you probably do have insight into the underlying reasons. DAFNE allows you to eat foods now that you may have previously considered off-limits. Talking with others who have done the course, that freedom to eat whatever they want has been frightening and not necessarily handled well. For myself, my snacking went very high following DAFNE, whereas previously, I had cut out snacking completely. I'm looking to cut it back at the moment. Something I am also having success with at the moment is replacing my usual evening dinner with a home-made salad. It is a really big salad made up of carrots, red capsicum, raw nuts, fetta cheese, chopped dates, dried apricots, raw mushroom, cucumber, pumpkin seeds, chopped apple and/or pear. It takes me about 40 minutes to eat it all, and has lots of fibre. It leaves me feeling full until morning, and still needs a bit of insulin to handle the dates, apricots, apple and pear, but contains enough carbs and protein while not adding many kilojoules to my weight gain. It tastes fantastic and is full of nutrients. Lastly, it uses hardly any dishes - just a chopping board and knife so I don't spend ages cleaning pots and fry pans afterwards :-) Hope this helps.

Aug 15, 2013 jackiemckenzie 3 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / weight gain Since attending a DAFNE course I have put on weight. I know this may sound silly but my brain can only cope with one thing at a time and I am only managing to work out my carbs to insulin and everything thing else goes out the window. I think I am making reasonable choices and I haver upped my exercise. I take just 3 lantus at night and in total each day 6-8 units of rapid acting. Please can someone offer any advise on how to make things easier for me. I really do not want to put on more weight and would like to loose the weight I have recently put on. I probably really do know the answers but it is putting it in practice. B.G generally in DAFNE targets. many thanks

Aug 13, 2013 sarahg 29 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Cycling and exercise Hi guys thanks for the advice, the 40 miles did take a fair few hours, and I did end up stopping and testing a few times, and had a few extra snacks , I hope I do the next 40 a bit faster, as I get fitter but Iam really enjoying the cycling

Aug 13, 2013 JamesW 24 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Cycling and exercise I find testing during riding is good too, particularly if I am riding for a couple of hours. It is an inconvenience to have to stop part-way through the ride but it allows you to see how your body reacts to the exercise. Personally I don't reduce my insulin prior to riding, taking my normal dose for breakfast (I usually ride in the morning). When I return I will drink a blended banana with some milk and cocoa and match the carbs 100%. My subsequent lunch and evening meal doses will however be reduced by 50% and 25% respectively. I will also bear in mind my dosing the next day too, maybe taking a shade less than normal to counter any exercise "hangover". Depending on the pace you are setting, anything over an hour will probably necessitate some form of fuel. Knowing the composition of that is helpful to account for the readings during and after riding so you can tailor your insulin accordingly.

Aug 12, 2013 mum2westiesGill 502 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Increase of Lantus/BI Thanks for your reply Garry. A split is something to consider but obviously not when on the verge of going away on holiday and out of the country. When I'm back home I'll give it probably 1 week or just over to see how things have settled and take it from there. Regards Gill

Aug 12, 2013 Sam 64 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Pregnancy* Hello Ladies! Sorry for the late response. All is going very well. That's me 12 weeks today I've had 2 scans so far and baby seems to be growing well and certainly making me feel like pants some days. My BGs have came right down into target most days so I'm now running between 4-6 pre-meals and testing 2 hours post meals. My ratios have remained 2:1 across the board. If anything I've been working with my BI. Changed from Humulin I to Levimer as I was hypoing through the night. My HBA1C was at 9% when I found out I was pregnant. 4 weeks later it's at 7.7% It's been hard work to get my targets but I'd rather that than have problems. My diabetic care team are fantastic and are there for me 24/7 Just be prepared to put the work in but all I'm thinking about is getting to the next day and everything being ok. I got my scan last Wed and was so flustered and BGs were low that I scoffed my lunch and forgot to take QA - I've been chasing my tail since and I'm so annoyed with myself. If that's baby brain god help me over the next few months/years lol!! Anyway good luck and lots of baby dust. It took me just under a year to concieve and all I focused on was trying to fall pregnant. I was due to get the pump and I focused on that in the end and hey presto along came a baby!! It's a lot of pressure to put yourself through so try and keep calm. Easier said than done when you want to start planning. Ahhhh it's all exciting Keep in touch xx

Aug 12, 2013 Garry 328 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Increase of Lantus/BI Likely ... like most of us ... that your BI does not last 24 hours. It only lasted 20 to 21 hours max for me and with that evidence, plus HCP advice, led me to my current split BI ... which works for me. Regards Garry