Recent Posts - DAFNE Online

Aug 10, 2012

DianeW 115 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Eating Out - help needed please to stop my panic

To avoid panicking and spoiling your enjoyment of the meal, why don't you test before you go out - if your BG is not in range, do a correction dose. Then you could count the carbs when you order the meal, go and do injection (no need to test because you know you are in range) and there you go. If you decide to eat more than you ordered, you can always test and inject when you get home. YOu shouldn't be getting stressed over it! You can't ALWAYS be perfect.

Aug 10, 2012

mum2westiesGill 502 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Eating Out - help needed please to stop my panic

What's your routine?

My routine when i'm eating out with family and or friends:

- choose what i want from the menu & memorise what are going to be the carby things in the meal ie potatoes, rice......

- sit and chat / drink

- meal arrives & i eyeball the amount/s of carbs

- at this point i start to get into a panic because i'm having to 1. test (which is done at the table if ideal and if not then i go off to the ladies), 2. fiddle through (almost ripping the pages in my panic) my pocket size carbs and cals book to try & find the carb things i'm having then 3. inject

- i start panicing bacause everyone else has started maybe eating then i usually have someone at the table reminding me my food is going cold.

I've eaten out many times but i always end up with this panic. Any help in trying to stop this panic would be greatly appreciated.

I have a meal out coming up this Saturday for my DS 21st.

Aug 10, 2012

mum2westiesGill 502 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Testing then Injecting - how long?

novorapidboi26 said:
I now realize that you are asking how long between finger prick and injection, for me it would be immediately after...........

do you find yourself waiting a while? and if so, why?

No i never find myself waiting a while I was just purely wanting to know what's the longest you can go after doing a test then if a meal was delayed how long before you would have to do another test? Hope that makes sense.

Aug 10, 2012

Poldaly 3 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Any Advice?

Hello,

I have recently started a new job which has thrown my BG levels out a fair bit. My old job was really physical & I used to reduce my QA by a couple before each shift. This worked fine for me for a couple of years.

Now however, I still do the physical job on Tuesday and Wednesday, but Monday, Thursday & Friday's I have an office based job.

So... I recently had to reduce my BI to 18u as I had a couple of over night hypos. But I just find my BG are all over the place now & am a bit stuck!

There are lots of anomalies in there, eg last night I got a Domino's pizza, matched by QA with info from their webpage. At bed time my BG was 4.8 so I had 1.5CP snack to avoid hypo.... then this morning by BG was up at 19.

Any advice gratefully received!

Paul

Aug 10, 2012

kid127 25 posts

Topic: Questions for HCPs / Running and pump use

Hi Helen,

Not sure if you have already run the half marathon or not but im on a pump so can offer some advice from my experiences. I run a half marathon last October and I disconnected the pump for the first hour and then attached it on 30% rate for the rest of the race. I had a bag of lucozade jelly beans in my pocket and had a couple of jelly beans every mile as well

That left me with reasonable BSG levels after the race and gave me enough energy to complete the race. I have to say I experimented a lot to get that routine including checking my sugar levels during practise runs to see where I was at, best advice is to take your test kit out with you on a practise run and see where you are every couple of miles. That will tell you when you need sugar and when you need insulin

Hope that helps give you some ideas anyway

Cheers

Lee

Aug 9, 2012

Guy Kramer 12 posts

Topic: Site Development / Data Analysis

Hello,

I wondered who I could speak to about getting a FULL copy of all data held on me in the DAFNE Online database. For the past 8 months I have been working a project at work using software Splunk which is an extremely powerful tool that is able to provide a number of functions.

What I would like to do is feed all of my DAFNE Online data in to Splunk and create some dashboards / graphs and other cool stuff, it might also highlight something or help me learn more. I can do all this by creating an app within Splunk. The software is free itself, so others may want to try themselves or maybe used on DAFNE Online itself?

Thanks
Guy

Aug 9, 2012

Guy Kramer 12 posts

Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Port mobile app to desktop?

Hi,

Maybe this is more specific to me? but I would find it easier to have an app that runs on the desktop.

You have to excuse me for not having any coding background. I wondered if it would be possible to port the iPhone/Android maybe using Java or Adobe Air or something?

Or maybe another option is a browser plugin?

I don't know what anybody else thinks???

Aug 9, 2012

marke 686 posts

Topic: General Discussion / NHS Medication Changes: Are you affected?

This sounds like a major step backwards to me. Yes the test strips do seem to be a lot cheaper, but why ? Being naturally suspicious I would question the motivation both of you doctors and the company that makes the meters/strips in singapore. What happened to freedom of choice in the NHS ? So will they put in place the infrastructure to support this equipment, rather than the current very basic website with no support and only one phone number for the UK. What happens if you lose or have problems with the meter ? Do all the chemists in your area stock these test strips and can they get supplies easily. You would hope that the PCT/consortium would have put all that in place before forcing you to use the meter, but have they ?

I will put up a real battle if they try to change my meter, especially as my GP does not and is not going to be reponsible for my Diabetes treatment.

Aug 9, 2012

chrisinbrum 41 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet

I don't think the use of medical bracelets or other jewellery to identify someone as diabetic with an emergency contact and medication details is just for if/when bad hypos occur.

If, as one of the comments above says, you do get run over by a bus, it's really important that you're identified as having diabetes as soon as possible, by anyone who treats you. That's why your doctor or nurse should be giving every diabetic patient an insulin passport (by the end of the year I think) - there have been some serious mistakes and deaths in hospitals caused by the wrong use of insulin.

Aug 9, 2012

novorapidboi26 1,819 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet

If there is ever a time in my life when I can't feel my hypos coming regardless of all efforts to get the symptoms back then I would feel I had to wear something......

Any hypo I have has a pattern.......thery are always within an hour of my next meal through increased activity or being out slightly with my previous dose, and the effects of alcohol.....that's it, no unexpected hypos, but maybe more importantly, no fast onset ones, they are slow, giving more time to react to it.......

So knowing this I can't justify a peice of jewellery just yet, but others should of they want....

Aug 9, 2012

Simon 578 posts

Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences

Hi Roger,

By adding carbs we been entering your own entries into the CP list, in case there is anything which you regularly have but which isn't in the DAFNE CP book.

Aug 9, 2012

Ahmentep 99 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet

I have worn a Medi-Tag bracelet (stainless steel) for many years and it has proved beneficial on many occasions. I have little or no warning these days so, even though I usually have glucose with me, sometimes I don't get to drink it. To admit that such devices are worthwhile but still say that you almost certainly won't get one brings complacency to a new level in my view. None of us knows what will happen to us in the next five minutes. We might never have had a disabling hypo, we might never have suffered lypodystrophy through repeated needle use, many other things may never have affected us, yet! The number of times in my life I have heard people say that there is no need for safety procedures or preventative measures because nothing has ever happened, only to have it happen some time later makes me shudder. Such simple, inexpensive measures could mean the difference between life and death!
If you don't care about yourselves, think of your loved ones and how they would feel going through the rest of their lives feeling that you might still be there if only you had worn a bracelet.
Of course, a bracelet won't help if you get run over by a bus!

Roger

Aug 9, 2012

Ahmentep 99 posts

Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences

I've just seen where I was confused about auto-calc. You were talking about corrections. That would be very useful!
I still don't get what you mean about adding carbs though. But then, it is 2.46 a.m. !

Roger

Aug 9, 2012

Ahmentep 99 posts

Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences

Hi there,

I am confused! Perhaps I'm missing something here. I have been using the Android app on both a Dell Streak and a Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 for some time now and I can add (enter?) carbs and the app calculates QA.

Kind regards,

Roger

Aug 8, 2012

novorapidboi26 1,819 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet

I agree that it would be a good thing to have something, but it's unlikely I will be getting anything.....

I used to have a card that said I was diabetic and was stuck in behind my train card.....

Aug 8, 2012

JayBee 587 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet

That is a very good point - I've never had a seriously bad hypo or gone DKA either, yet I have one... if I didn't, I'd probably still pick up a medic alert thing or something.

My current SOS necklace was given to me as a present by my parents. They also got me my original one when I much younger but I think that was one that went funny because it was only plated and not solid silver like the one I own now. I got a sports bracelet between those necklaces... very easily fell apart though for me. Sad

It's good that we all use something. I think I do have a card in my wallet that I tend to completely forget about! Smile

Aug 8, 2012

JayBee 587 posts

Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences

I see! Okay, that's fair enough. Thanks for letting me know. Smile

I shall look forward to the eventual update!

Aug 8, 2012

Simon 578 posts

Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / To all iPhone 3G users

This is a heads up for all people who are using an iPhone 3G and the DAFNE Online app. When the next release of iOS comes out (version 6 in autumn) Apple will be removing the ability to build the app for the iPhone 3G. This is because the 3 has a different processor type to the 3GS, 4 and 4S. If you want a more technical explanation then this blog post explains all.

So what does this mean for our app users? You will still be able to download updates (and fresh copies) of the app up until the first update of the app after iOS 6 comes out. After that happens any updates I add won't be able to create an iPhone 3G version, and you will have to stay with the version in the app store when iOS 6 came out.

Even though you won't be able to get updates for the app, you will still be able to use it on your iPhone 3G

Just a heads up, in case you were already thinking of upgrading Smile

Aug 8, 2012

Mike87 10 posts

Topic: Carbohydrate Counting / Carb group replacement

Hi. Used to b a massive carb person, loads of potatos, bread and pasta more often than,not with most meals. Iv drastically cut these right down which has improved my b. Sugars but now looking for foods to replace these with not completly but alot of the time!! Can anyone suggest replacements for bread, potato and pasta? Iv been reading loads and theres alot of funny looking foods out there but as were all in the same boat, what would the fellow community of carb counters use??

Many thanks

Aug 8, 2012

John H 20 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet

I hope that any diabetic would have the sense to wear some form of medical information. Its all very well saying my control is great, and never had a bad hypo, this means you've been very fortunate ! There are definitive reasons for these tags/talisman id's It will help if you get caught out for any reason. If anybody was to find you barely concious and had no medical stuff concerning your diabetes, maybe thats the last thing that gets checked for. I would advise that you reconsider this, the risks far outweigh the small investment for a tag set.

Aug 8, 2012

Adrienne 14 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Testing then Injecting - how long?

Sometimes I have tested in anticipation of eating a meal, but then the meal has been delayed for some reason. Normally I would not re-test if I eat within about 2 hrs, and there aren't other factors involved like exercise. I'm not sure what DAFNE officially says about this. I think it's a toss up between unnecessary testing (using more test strips, more finger pricks) and whether you are injecting based on an accurate BG reading. I agree with JWo - if you think your BI is correct/stable the timing won't matter so much.

Aug 7, 2012

Simon 578 posts

Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences

Hi JWo. The android app is developed by Keith, and I look after the iPhone app. In the iPhone you can add your own carbs and also auto-calc corrections, and this isn't in the android version yet as Keith usually takes guidance from what I'm putting into the iPhone app.

Also, we do this in or spare time so we can't always devote as much attention to the apps and site as we'd like! Rest assured an updated android version will be out soon Smile

Aug 7, 2012

Simon 578 posts

Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / iphone app crashing

The problem with iOS 4 has been corrected and I've submitted an update to the app store which should be approved this week. Apologies to all iPhone 3G users and thanks for your patience.

Aug 7, 2012

novorapidboi26 1,819 posts

Topic: General Discussion / NHS Medication Changes: Are you affected?

I use the insulinX, so dose calculations etc...........

I wouldn't like it if they took this from me, in fact I could probably put up a good argument............

it just shows you how much the 'postcode lottery' exists......

Aug 7, 2012

novorapidboi26 1,819 posts

Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet

I can happily say I have had no really scary hypos, I think that's because once I started getting good control, which was post DAFNE, I always carry hypo resolve with me, so I am not fearful of them, as I know I can treat it.........

because of this, I have never had any medical jewelry......

has anyone used them, that they have personally known of, or been told of...........?

Aug 10, 2012 DianeW 115 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Eating Out - help needed please to stop my panic To avoid panicking and spoiling your enjoyment of the meal, why don't you test before you go out - if your BG is not in range, do a correction dose. Then you could count the carbs when you order the meal, go and do injection (no need to test because you know you are in range) and there you go. If you decide to eat more than you ordered, you can always test and inject when you get home. YOu shouldn't be getting stressed over it! You can't ALWAYS be perfect.

Aug 10, 2012 mum2westiesGill 502 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Eating Out - help needed please to stop my panic What's your routine? My routine when i'm eating out with family and or friends: - choose what i want from the menu & memorise what are going to be the carby things in the meal ie potatoes, rice...... - sit and chat / drink - meal arrives & i eyeball the amount/s of carbs - at this point i start to get into a panic because i'm having to 1. test (which is done at the table if ideal and if not then i go off to the ladies), 2. fiddle through (almost ripping the pages in my panic) my pocket size carbs and cals book to try & find the carb things i'm having then 3. inject - i start panicing bacause everyone else has started maybe eating then i usually have someone at the table reminding me my food is going cold. I've eaten out many times but i always end up with this panic. Any help in trying to stop this panic would be greatly appreciated. I have a meal out coming up this Saturday for my DS 21st.

Aug 10, 2012 mum2westiesGill 502 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Testing then Injecting - how long? novorapidboi26 said: I now realize that you are asking how long between finger prick and injection, for me it would be immediately after........... do you find yourself waiting a while? and if so, why? No i never find myself waiting a while I was just purely wanting to know what's the longest you can go after doing a test then if a meal was delayed how long before you would have to do another test? Hope that makes sense.

Aug 10, 2012 Poldaly 3 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Any Advice? Hello, I have recently started a new job which has thrown my BG levels out a fair bit. My old job was really physical & I used to reduce my QA by a couple before each shift. This worked fine for me for a couple of years. Now however, I still do the physical job on Tuesday and Wednesday, but Monday, Thursday & Friday's I have an office based job. So... I recently had to reduce my BI to 18u as I had a couple of over night hypos. But I just find my BG are all over the place now & am a bit stuck! There are lots of anomalies in there, eg last night I got a Domino's pizza, matched by QA with info from their webpage. At bed time my BG was 4.8 so I had 1.5CP snack to avoid hypo.... then this morning by BG was up at 19. Any advice gratefully received! Paul

Aug 10, 2012 kid127 25 posts	Topic: Questions for HCPs / Running and pump use Hi Helen, Not sure if you have already run the half marathon or not but im on a pump so can offer some advice from my experiences. I run a half marathon last October and I disconnected the pump for the first hour and then attached it on 30% rate for the rest of the race. I had a bag of lucozade jelly beans in my pocket and had a couple of jelly beans every mile as well That left me with reasonable BSG levels after the race and gave me enough energy to complete the race. I have to say I experimented a lot to get that routine including checking my sugar levels during practise runs to see where I was at, best advice is to take your test kit out with you on a practise run and see where you are every couple of miles. That will tell you when you need sugar and when you need insulin Hope that helps give you some ideas anyway Cheers Lee

Aug 9, 2012 Guy Kramer 12 posts	Topic: Site Development / Data Analysis Hello, I wondered who I could speak to about getting a FULL copy of all data held on me in the DAFNE Online database. For the past 8 months I have been working a project at work using software Splunk which is an extremely powerful tool that is able to provide a number of functions. What I would like to do is feed all of my DAFNE Online data in to Splunk and create some dashboards / graphs and other cool stuff, it might also highlight something or help me learn more. I can do all this by creating an app within Splunk. The software is free itself, so others may want to try themselves or maybe used on DAFNE Online itself? Thanks Guy

Aug 9, 2012 Guy Kramer 12 posts	Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Port mobile app to desktop? Hi, Maybe this is more specific to me? but I would find it easier to have an app that runs on the desktop. You have to excuse me for not having any coding background. I wondered if it would be possible to port the iPhone/Android maybe using Java or Adobe Air or something? Or maybe another option is a browser plugin? I don't know what anybody else thinks???

Aug 9, 2012 marke 686 posts	Topic: General Discussion / NHS Medication Changes: Are you affected? This sounds like a major step backwards to me. Yes the test strips do seem to be a lot cheaper, but why ? Being naturally suspicious I would question the motivation both of you doctors and the company that makes the meters/strips in singapore. What happened to freedom of choice in the NHS ? So will they put in place the infrastructure to support this equipment, rather than the current very basic website with no support and only one phone number for the UK. What happens if you lose or have problems with the meter ? Do all the chemists in your area stock these test strips and can they get supplies easily. You would hope that the PCT/consortium would have put all that in place before forcing you to use the meter, but have they ? I will put up a real battle if they try to change my meter, especially as my GP does not and is not going to be reponsible for my Diabetes treatment.

Aug 9, 2012 chrisinbrum 41 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet I don't think the use of medical bracelets or other jewellery to identify someone as diabetic with an emergency contact and medication details is just for if/when bad hypos occur. If, as one of the comments above says, you do get run over by a bus, it's really important that you're identified as having diabetes as soon as possible, by anyone who treats you. That's why your doctor or nurse should be giving every diabetic patient an insulin passport (by the end of the year I think) - there have been some serious mistakes and deaths in hospitals caused by the wrong use of insulin.

Aug 9, 2012 novorapidboi26 1,819 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet If there is ever a time in my life when I can't feel my hypos coming regardless of all efforts to get the symptoms back then I would feel I had to wear something...... Any hypo I have has a pattern.......thery are always within an hour of my next meal through increased activity or being out slightly with my previous dose, and the effects of alcohol.....that's it, no unexpected hypos, but maybe more importantly, no fast onset ones, they are slow, giving more time to react to it....... So knowing this I can't justify a peice of jewellery just yet, but others should of they want....

Aug 9, 2012 Simon 578 posts	Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences Hi Roger, By adding carbs we been entering your own entries into the CP list, in case there is anything which you regularly have but which isn't in the DAFNE CP book.

Aug 9, 2012 Ahmentep 99 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet I have worn a Medi-Tag bracelet (stainless steel) for many years and it has proved beneficial on many occasions. I have little or no warning these days so, even though I usually have glucose with me, sometimes I don't get to drink it. To admit that such devices are worthwhile but still say that you almost certainly won't get one brings complacency to a new level in my view. None of us knows what will happen to us in the next five minutes. We might never have had a disabling hypo, we might never have suffered lypodystrophy through repeated needle use, many other things may never have affected us, yet! The number of times in my life I have heard people say that there is no need for safety procedures or preventative measures because nothing has ever happened, only to have it happen some time later makes me shudder. Such simple, inexpensive measures could mean the difference between life and death! If you don't care about yourselves, think of your loved ones and how they would feel going through the rest of their lives feeling that you might still be there if only you had worn a bracelet. Of course, a bracelet won't help if you get run over by a bus! Roger

Aug 9, 2012 Ahmentep 99 posts	Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences I've just seen where I was confused about auto-calc. You were talking about corrections. That would be very useful! I still don't get what you mean about adding carbs though. But then, it is 2.46 a.m. ! Roger

Aug 9, 2012 Ahmentep 99 posts	Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences Hi there, I am confused! Perhaps I'm missing something here. I have been using the Android app on both a Dell Streak and a Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 for some time now and I can add (enter?) carbs and the app calculates QA. Kind regards, Roger

Aug 8, 2012 novorapidboi26 1,819 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet I agree that it would be a good thing to have something, but it's unlikely I will be getting anything..... I used to have a card that said I was diabetic and was stuck in behind my train card.....

Aug 8, 2012 JayBee 587 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet That is a very good point - I've never had a seriously bad hypo or gone DKA either, yet I have one... if I didn't, I'd probably still pick up a medic alert thing or something. My current SOS necklace was given to me as a present by my parents. They also got me my original one when I much younger but I think that was one that went funny because it was only plated and not solid silver like the one I own now. I got a sports bracelet between those necklaces... very easily fell apart though for me. It's good that we all use something. I think I do have a card in my wallet that I tend to completely forget about!

Aug 8, 2012 JayBee 587 posts	Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences I see! Okay, that's fair enough. Thanks for letting me know. I shall look forward to the eventual update!

Aug 8, 2012 Simon 578 posts	Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / To all iPhone 3G users This is a heads up for all people who are using an iPhone 3G and the DAFNE Online app. When the next release of iOS comes out (version 6 in autumn) Apple will be removing the ability to build the app for the iPhone 3G. This is because the 3 has a different processor type to the 3GS, 4 and 4S. If you want a more technical explanation then this blog post explains all. So what does this mean for our app users? You will still be able to download updates (and fresh copies) of the app up until the first update of the app after iOS 6 comes out. After that happens any updates I add won't be able to create an iPhone 3G version, and you will have to stay with the version in the app store when iOS 6 came out. Even though you won't be able to get updates for the app, you will still be able to use it on your iPhone 3G Just a heads up, in case you were already thinking of upgrading

Aug 8, 2012 Mike87 10 posts	Topic: Carbohydrate Counting / Carb group replacement Hi. Used to b a massive carb person, loads of potatos, bread and pasta more often than,not with most meals. Iv drastically cut these right down which has improved my b. Sugars but now looking for foods to replace these with not completly but alot of the time!! Can anyone suggest replacements for bread, potato and pasta? Iv been reading loads and theres alot of funny looking foods out there but as were all in the same boat, what would the fellow community of carb counters use?? Many thanks

Aug 8, 2012 John H 20 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet I hope that any diabetic would have the sense to wear some form of medical information. Its all very well saying my control is great, and never had a bad hypo, this means you've been very fortunate ! There are definitive reasons for these tags/talisman id's It will help if you get caught out for any reason. If anybody was to find you barely concious and had no medical stuff concerning your diabetes, maybe thats the last thing that gets checked for. I would advise that you reconsider this, the risks far outweigh the small investment for a tag set.

Aug 8, 2012 Adrienne 14 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Testing then Injecting - how long? Sometimes I have tested in anticipation of eating a meal, but then the meal has been delayed for some reason. Normally I would not re-test if I eat within about 2 hrs, and there aren't other factors involved like exercise. I'm not sure what DAFNE officially says about this. I think it's a toss up between unnecessary testing (using more test strips, more finger pricks) and whether you are injecting based on an accurate BG reading. I agree with JWo - if you think your BI is correct/stable the timing won't matter so much.

Aug 7, 2012 Simon 578 posts	Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / Application Differences Hi JWo. The android app is developed by Keith, and I look after the iPhone app. In the iPhone you can add your own carbs and also auto-calc corrections, and this isn't in the android version yet as Keith usually takes guidance from what I'm putting into the iPhone app. Also, we do this in or spare time so we can't always devote as much attention to the apps and site as we'd like! Rest assured an updated android version will be out soon

Aug 7, 2012 Simon 578 posts	Topic: DAFNE Online Mobile / iphone app crashing The problem with iOS 4 has been corrected and I've submitted an update to the app store which should be approved this week. Apologies to all iPhone 3G users and thanks for your patience.

Aug 7, 2012 novorapidboi26 1,819 posts	Topic: General Discussion / NHS Medication Changes: Are you affected? I use the insulinX, so dose calculations etc........... I wouldn't like it if they took this from me, in fact I could probably put up a good argument............ it just shows you how much the 'postcode lottery' exists......

Aug 7, 2012 novorapidboi26 1,819 posts	Topic: General Discussion / Medical Bracelet I can happily say I have had no really scary hypos, I think that's because once I started getting good control, which was post DAFNE, I always carry hypo resolve with me, so I am not fearful of them, as I know I can treat it......... because of this, I have never had any medical jewelry...... has anyone used them, that they have personally known of, or been told of...........?